Natural20 ([info]natural20) wrote in [info]irishgaming,

Why the Irish Con Scenario System Has Failed.



Ireland, for those of you that are unaware, runs a very different system of scenario running to most other countries. Here one person writes a scenario then it is run by multiple GMs across a number of tables. There are many benefits to this system. It allows a large number of people to play a popular game with a requirement for only one scenario. It allows people to run games without having to write them and it allows a shared experience amongst players that has fed many a post-con conversation. There are a bunch of fringe benefits as well and I have been a staunch defender of the system (primarily against sign-up sheets and single table games) for many years.

However I now feel that the system has broken down to the point where it is hampering enjoyment for all concerned, the con organisers, the GMs and the players. There are also considerations relating to reduced tabletop RPG player numbers. My feeling at this point is that we either need to change the system, or simply change system, to reflect modern realities.

I suspect this discussion is easiest to consider under a few headings, so that's what I'll do:

1) Scenarios and Deadlines

Way back when (there'll be a lot of this), scenario deadlines were something that most people adhered to, roughly, anyway. Yes, there were always last minute people, but more stuff came in on time than didn't. This meant that scenarios could be reviewed, possibly even suggestions made, photocopied and distributed weeks before the con. The Irish system relies on this and recently this has been happening less and less, even with the more organised events such as Gaelcon. The assumption now is that later is fine. This is, of course, grand if you're guaranteed to be the only one running your event, but if there's the possibility that it might need to get to other people, this falls down.

2) GMs and Preparedness

Of course the above flows directly into the matter of prepared GMs. In order to prepare your GMs you need to find out what they're willing to run and then get them the scenarios in plenty of time. For this you need to have a list of GMs and all the scenarios. More and more the system is devolving into giving people two minutes to read the pages and then pointing them at a table. I'm not saying this didn't used to happen, but in previous times there was a pre-slot briefing session with the writer which could make up for a lot of not reading. So the GMs had a coordinated view of the scenario and any questions that weren't answered in the written document could be answered live. This, to my mind, greatly improved the experience. I haven't heard of a briefing session happening at an Irish con in years. Equally there used to be a proper debrief, which gave an opportunity for discussion and criticism, which would lead to improved scenarios next time. Again, this doesn't really happen any more.

3) Player Numbers

When I started going to cons in 1990 you could expect fifteen or more tables of the big games at Gaelcon. By the mid-90s the numbers were still high at Gaelcon and Warpcon for Vampire, Cthulhu and AD&D with the smaller events still pulling in decent table numbers. Even smaller systems had multiple tables running. Today those numbers have shot down. The latest figures I have to hand are for Gaelcon 2005 when there were three tables of Cthulhu. It's not impossible that only two of those tables ran. So there goes your massive shared experience right there. And of course with fewer tables running, organisers are putting less effort into getting lots of GMs organised and so forth, it all feeds into itself.

So, we're left with scenarios arriving late, two or three tables running, with all bar the writer likely being an ill-prepared GM. This isn't a way to encourage people to play scenarios and it's putting a huge organisational burden on some people that doesn't pay off.

So, what should be done about it?

I feel we've passed the point of no return on the old system. While there are ways of bringing con numbers back up, I don't think that will translate, ever, into returning tabletop RPG numbers to their previous high level, there's just too much else going on. So we can continue our current system of trying to get an extra couple of tables going, with all the additional organisational effort, or we can go a different way. It is, perhaps, the time to move in the direction of our neighbours, to encourage more people to write a scenario they'll run themselves and either sell tickets to a single table (as tends to be the situation in the US I believe) or offer UK-style sign-up sheets. At that point it doesn't really make much difference, it's the writer/GM shift that's the bigger piece. We do it for LARPs, we do it for smaller, non-system, RPGs, why not take that final shift and hopefully make everyone's con experience better?

Scenario quality control is still possible, should it be required, as is selling tickets. However it gives the writer a more relaxed writing experience as they know they'll only be writing for themselves (or a designated GM perhaps) and the players know that the person at the table hasn't had a wodge of paper thrust at them five minutes ago by a desperate RPG co-ordinator.

The system, when it was organised and it worked, worked really well. I firmly believe that it's a better system than single table (although that has its place) and I'd love to go back to those days, however reality has dictated otherwise and the system we have right now is the worst of both worlds. Time to change.


  • Post a new comment

    Error

  • 54 comments

[info]word_maker

April 2 2009, 12:30:29 UTC 3 years ago

As a regular scenario writer for Vaticon and Gaelcon, I'd be in favour of changing to the US/UK model. There tends to only be one table, at most two, for any given RPG at Vaticon, as far as I've seen, and there doesn't seem to be any complaints about it.

I find it really restrictive to have to provide details for 2 GMs for my Gaelcon games. It limits the systems I can run to those my friends know and are willing to run, and I can see this spread across games as a whole, as more and more games use quick and easy patchworks of D20 or another well-known generic system, instead of promoting a wider variety of systems and titles. Worse, the majority of games I've played at Gaelcon have simply eschewed system altogether, replacing it with an arbitrary d10 roll every now and again. As someone who likes to try out as many different systems as I can, I find this deeply unsatisfying.

It's also a fairly widely-held belief that if you really want to enjoy a con game, you need to try and be sat at the writer's table. It's a belief I generally hold to myself.

I'd be much more willing to set aside 3 hours of my time to play a game if I was guaranteed that I was getting a GM who had written the scenario. And, if I knew that the only table of a game I'd written would be my own, I'd gladly write more scenarios to fill more slots.

[info]deannawol

April 2 2009, 13:38:25 UTC 3 years ago

Wow, have you been reading my mind? This is exactly why I want to set up a Writer/GM resourse so that we move away from the 'crap what do you mean my players are already sitting at the table and I haven't had a copy of the game I'm supposed to run' system that has been prevalent at a lot of cons.

You, and many other people, know that I tend to run more than my fair share of games at cons, and it's quite frankly the one thing that bugs me and made me step back for a year. It's amazingly stressful to be given a scenario five minutes before it's due to run and have to flick through it (because you don't have time to do anything more than flick) and then try to provide the best experience properly.

One thing I insist on when running games that I've written at cons is that a) the people running it have sat through the playtest of the game and so know what's happening, they've got a good idea of the characters and the events, b) they have a copy of the scenario before they go to the con and well, if they don't read it, then that's their own fault and c) there's a before and after session with them, not just so that we can pick a winner but also discuss how it went, how players enjoyed it and what to improve for next time. But I do seem to be in a minority from what I've seen.

What I'm hoping to do with the Writer/GM resourse is address things like Word_maker said below, get away from just having to rely on friends as extra GM's. Also, I want to get new GM blood into the Con circuit. I don't know how many times I've sat down at a con and just watched who is GMing. It always seems to be the same group of people (of whom, I seem to be a member for at least three Irish cons).

I'd love to see six tables running of a really good game. I'd love to see games selling out and us be able to open more tables because we know people who are ready to step in.

Granted, you will always have a certain element of 'crap what do you mean you sold an extra table, we only have five gms' but it does mean that when you plan for five tables, you can pick a spare GM from the list who knows the system and can step into the breach at the last minute... Sure it means that one table might get a less than stellar game because the GM is only reading a page in advance, but you have five fantastic tables going...

I'm hoping to get this up and running after Easter (Easter is a quiet time for me at work so I should be able to get some work done on this) and then trialling it for Gaelcon hopefully.

Also, I'm aware that LJ isn't the be-all and end all of Irish Gaming, so if people have ideas for where to post up sign-up sheets or messages, please let me know. Indeed, if anyone reads this and wants to volunteer or help out, please email me at deannawol[at]yahoo[dot]com.

[info]theadydal

April 2 2009, 15:06:18 UTC 3 years ago

Hopefully that will work well [info]deannawol and you are right new people need to be encouraged to write and gm instead of the same few people who are let face it growing up and having their life's get busier.

I'd love to see a workshop on writing a scenario for a con tbh, cos it's a lot frickin harder then it looks.

There is the wonderful archive at www.irishgaming.com but still knowing how much or how little can be tricky in terms of stats game mechaincs or twisting plot.

[info]deannawol

April 2 2009, 16:40:58 UTC 3 years ago

I think that's a fantastic idea. I know I've helped a couple of people with their first con scenarios, even going so far as to pull a couple of scenarios down off irish gaming to show them how best to format it so that GM's have an easier time running it...

*so does not need to pick this up as a secondary idea to trial at gaelcon*

[info]theadydal

April 2 2009, 17:14:42 UTC 3 years ago

tbh I would love to see this done over the summer so to encourage people to submit games and complete them for when the con season kicks off in the autumn.

[info]deannawol

3 years ago

[info]theadydal

3 years ago

[info]kshandr

April 3 2009, 09:17:17 UTC 3 years ago

There's a whole pile of stuff on the igaming list of old regarding scenario writing seminars/workshops.

This was one attempt that didn't happen (you'll find the setup thread here.

Another thing here, slightly earlier than the other...

Not saying you shouldn't, or that it's a bad idea. Just saying there's some ideas here that some old farts discussed way back when that you could plunder... :)

[info]theadydal

3 years ago

[info]kshandr

3 years ago

[info]theadydal

3 years ago

[info]psysquid

April 2 2009, 19:43:00 UTC 3 years ago Edited:  April 2 2009, 19:43:18 UTC

Crossposted, that more might bask in my wisdom...or is that arrogance?

Gotta disagree with you there, for a number of reasons. Let's start with the basic assumption.

You asked why the system has failed. The answer is laziness. Really, it's that simple. People are being lazy. The system itself isn't necessarily flawed, people are just being crap. While, as gothwalk pointed out, the fault may not entirely lie with the writer at times, as sometimes information on deadlines hasn't been passed on (which is another form of laziness, as people assume everyone knows), there are numerous examples I could cite off the top of my head of people who should know better just not bothering their asses. This is an argument that's come up several times before, whereby people say "but I'm a volunteer; I should'nt have people making demands of me", and my response has invariably been "either you volunteer, or you don't." Now, maybe I'm unreasonably hard-nosed about these things, but I don't believe in changing systems because people are dragging their heels. If we changed everything that people are too lazy to do properly, we'd have nothing. Nada. Zilch.

The only good reason for changing a system like this comes from evaluating the aims of your system and what you are trying to deliver. Personally, I like the Irish system, both from the point of view of a player and a writer. I like what it provides. The UK and US systems really don't float my boat. I'll go through why below.

1. Shared experience
You mentioned this one above, but it's worth reiterating again. Some of the most fun conversations I've had down the years have drawn off the shared experience of scenario X that two or more people in a group have played or run at different tables. It draws people together. For me, this is the cornerstone of the irish gaming experience. Take that away, and you'll find that all you have to talk about with peole is games that you didn't share. Gosh, I'd just love to hear about your 16th level drow paladin...

2. Structure
There is here, I feel, a marked difference in how we approach conventions. Some people like to show up, chat to some people, have a few drinks and maybe play some games. Bugger that. I want to do. I want to have something organised for me. I'm not paying somebody else my entrance fee for me to then go and make my own entertainment. I can do that myself, thank you very much. In fact, in this age of online communities, it's no longer even a carrying argument that nowhere else would I find so many people in the one place - we just aren't that isolated anymore.
I don't like to drift through cons. I hate watching time slip away without anything actually happening. I want to be able to look at the timetable and think "yeah, I could do that, and then maybe that, and that brings me up to evening when I'll do that". If I want some time off, then I can take a slot off - that's ok. What I don't want is to be hanging around wondering if a table of game X is actually going to take off, and watching my other opportunities falling away one by one as I hedge my bets.
This is just as much the case as a writer/GM. I will volunteer to run something in a given slot. That's fine. I don't want to be sitting around wondering if my table is going to fill up or if I have to wait until an hour later when it's going to clash with other things I want to do.

3. Investment
If I'm going to write a game, then I want it to be worth my effort. If other people get to run my game, and I get to hear how they fared, that helps. It also makes it less likely that my game is only going to be run at a table full of, and I'm sorry for using a term which doesn't embrace our right to all play in different ways, crap players. I really don't feel motivated to put time and effort into crafted something special if I'm going to get a table full of muppets who would make ADHD sufferers scorn their short attention spans, and who think the height of humour is to rape the first encounter.
That's not a metaphor, by the way.
Sure, I could cherry pick my players, but wait - I can do that at home. So, er, why am I bothering?

[info]psysquid

April 2 2009, 19:43:48 UTC 3 years ago

and continued, owing to comment length limits

So, that's some of what I feel would be thrown away with a move away from the current system. Rather than, as Shane says elsewhere, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I'd much rather see people try to make the current system work. A switch over to a different system would leave us with something that I'm not really sure I could be bothered attending. Just because something is called -con, doesn't make it the experience I enjoy. It's all about the content.

Bear in mind that I talk here has someone who has, in the past, removed writers from the line-up for not producing the goods on time, brought in ringers to replace them and tossed out scenarios for being rubbish. Sometimes, you just have to do that.

[info]elistevo

April 2 2009, 20:53:25 UTC 3 years ago

I'm with psysquid on this one I'm afraid.

I would hate to see a fullfledged change in the way the system operates. I think some of the reasons for this "failure" is partly the way cons run, timetabling, and laziness.

I've been through the other side of the system- and I don't like it as much as I do over here. I like the way the Irish do things. And I think there are ways to "fix" this that don't involve a revamp and sole responsibility of writers.

Deleted comment

[info]theadydal

3 years ago

[info]cujovaltone

April 3 2009, 00:53:04 UTC 3 years ago

Cross referenced

Have already posted my opinion elsewhere.

[info]marginal_jc

April 3 2009, 03:30:09 UTC 3 years ago

I'm with psysquid rather than natural20 on this one. While agreeing that there is a problem, fix the current system rather than changing.

I honestly don't see the merits of the UK/US system. It dosen't make less work.

I think part of the problem is that some of the bad things became "cool" things. Writing the scenario the night before? That's not careless, it's legendary. Ignoring the RPG director's repeated calls? Of course, I'm a superstar writer. Running a scenario without prep time? Again, cool rather than bad. Throwing out the system rules and just rolling a dice every now and then? De rigueur for any fly-by-the-seat-of-pants superstar GM (In fact, I'll hold up my own guilty hand for this one).

My point is that the things we used to do to paper over the slippages turned into the standard. Get it back on the straight and narrow.

[info]psysquid

April 3 2009, 05:53:19 UTC 3 years ago

*applause*

[info]kshandr

April 3 2009, 08:50:22 UTC 3 years ago

Wow. I've written a scenario the night before. More than one, in fact. I've run a scenario where I roll a dice every now and then. I must be a terrible person!

The ability to write a scenario the night before, or not, is something we could argue a lot, I think. Bearing in mind that 75% of my scenarios are only ever run by me I avoid the "handing other people crap" problem. Or maybe I don't - I always hand every player a bunch of sheets. More often than not there's a fair few sheets there because one of my failings is to try and pack as much background into a LARP as I can. I *do* worry that if I complete something the night before (or the day of, in some cases - I'm *that* bad sometimes) that the quality suffers. I don't think it suffers particularly, having looked at it over a number of years. That's one of the "continuous improvement" things I live with. If I start to feel I'm failing, then, well... it's time to get out of the game or start writing things a couple of days before, or whatever.

As for sometimes running games without the rules, everyone's got a style. When I run a campaign (it's been a long time) I tend to throw out the rules and run with simple conflict resolution because generally speaking my players can deal with that. We're a story-oriented bunch. When I run a con scenario that's my own or someone else's (again - 25% of the time... I tend to run my own stuff, somewhat selfishly, rather than other peoples') I tend to apply my default style before looking at the group and changing it. I've run rules-heavy D&D3E for a group of teenagers. I've run a Cthulhu story without resorting to dice even once. We change our styles dependant on the group.

It's not to do with "X behaviour is bad and Y behaviour is good", in my humble opinion. It's much more to do with maturity and professionalism. If I didn't think I could bang out a scenario the night before the con that is as good as the one I could do ten days before the con, I wouldn't do it. If I didn't think that my RPG group were enjoying my mostly rulesless RPG I wouldn't run it that way. But because I am a narrativist gamer I run RPGs with as few rules as I can. Because I am a procrastinator I tend to leave things to the last minute.

So to the point, I'm very on the fence as regards the UK/US system versus ours. I disagree with different aspects of the scenario submission process than the ones being discussed here. But I don't think that tightening the screws is necessarily the answer, because I'm one of the people who the screw-tightened process wouldn't suit and I don't think that my "fast and loose" (by your definition) style results in "bad" scenarios.

[info]word_maker

3 years ago

[info]kshandr

3 years ago

[info]word_maker

3 years ago

[info]word_maker

3 years ago

[info]elistevo

3 years ago

[info]word_maker

3 years ago

[info]elistevo

3 years ago

[info]word_maker

3 years ago

[info]elistevo

3 years ago

[info]word_maker

3 years ago

[info]elistevo

3 years ago

[info]word_maker

3 years ago

[info]elistevo

3 years ago

[info]pinkymonster

April 3 2009, 08:53:26 UTC 3 years ago

I think our system is flawed but not broken. I haven't attended a lot of UK cons but I never liked the elitism of the sign-up sheet. It's too easy to miss out...I remember an instance of a "Famous Five" game at Qcon where there was only one table and loads of people wanted to play it. The people who go to play where a bit like Nam vets afterwards... Essentially I agree with [info]psysquid and I like [info]trekkypj's idea of having more fluid slots.

Deleted comment

Deleted comment

[info]natural20

April 3 2009, 11:43:33 UTC 3 years ago

Really? So how much would you pay for a con?

Deleted comment

[info]theadydal

3 years ago

Deleted comment

[info]theadydal

3 years ago

[info]megglesmcgoo

April 3 2009, 11:53:00 UTC 3 years ago

I have only ever written con rpg scenarios twice in both cases I expected them to be niche games with perhaps two tables or three if things sold well. I prepared two other gms. One sold two tables and I didn't need my third gm. One sold seven tables but when I came in that morning it was five. I did have a briefing session (I remember it) and a debrief. Now both games went well (I think anyway) but I was totally unprepared for the popularity of the larger one and wish I'd known beforehand so as to have better gm communication, with a precis to offer people before hand or something. I think that probably nobody knew it would run that many tables but I still felt some tables missed out.

If there was some way to communicate with a pool of gms it would have been easier for me as generally I've had to ask people to gm who wanted to play really.

As regards systems I think it is difficult, perhaps impossible, to get your secnario accepted if it has no system or admits in the blurb to being light on the system. I prefer to trust my gm to run the game rather than worry about system and I run my games as I would like to play them. I presume people who love systems do the same.

[info]natural20

April 3 2009, 11:59:43 UTC 3 years ago

If there was some way to communicate with a pool of gms it would have been easier for me as generally I've had to ask people to gm who wanted to play really.

Well, there used to be, sorta. Certainly the RPG coordinator had a way. But a more active and easier to reach pool would be great. This comment has been made a few times and see [info]'s comments for more.

As regards systems I think it is difficult, perhaps impossible, to get your secnario accepted if it has no system or admits in the blurb to being light on the system.

I've actually never had a problem. This may be a function of being me (not trying to be arrogant here, just mentioning in case it's said back to me), but I find most committees are willing to try a few new things.

[info]deannawol

3 years ago

[info]deannawol

3 years ago

[info]deannawol

April 3 2009, 14:50:15 UTC 3 years ago

As regards systems I think it is difficult, perhaps impossible, to get your secnario accepted if it has no system or admits in the blurb to being light on the system.

Honestly, don't let that worry you. If you are running a system light or a homemade system, just make sure that one page of your scenario explains this to your GM's and gives them a set of reference notes so that they know what's going on. RPG co-ordinators don't mind scenarios that are light on system as long as they know what the system is, roughly how it's going to run and whether their is a reason for not.

I've run RPGs where they've been modified versions of systems or completely homegrown systems but the key to it is having the system that you are going to use written down so they can be certain that anyone they hand it to will have an idea on how to run it. If you want more help with this or want to talk it out with someone, please don't hesitate to contact me off post. :)

[info]deannawol

3 years ago

[info]sarklor

April 3 2009, 14:16:45 UTC 3 years ago

The lack of organisation isn't a failing of the system. You can't blame the alarm clock for not working when you never set it to go off in the first place.

Now, I've been guilty of some of those con game crimes. I've filled out character sheets 30 minutes before the game started. I've been short on GMs and had to go hunting for one so an extra table can run. And I've had unreliable writers submit their scenarios the day it's supposed to be running, or not at all.

But a little forethought sorts that out. Still copying out character sheets? Get someone to help you do it faster. Sold an extra table? Either set a maximum number of tables according to how many GMs you have or ensure you have a list of backup GMs to ask BEFORE you have a dozen people standing around wondering when the game they paid for isn't happening. Keeping in touch with the people who wrote for you before is easy in this day and age, if someone else takes over the job of RPG coordinator then just pass the list along. Unreliable writers? Have backups ready to run, or better yet, just don't accept scenarios from someone you know will let you down. It's really not hard.

Maybe there are a large bunch of terribly disgruntled people from Itzacon III who kept their complaints about the RPGs totally secret, but I think my side of it went rather well.

I've had a go at the UK system when I went to Conpulsion. It's not without its merits- You can cram more games in, there's more variety(Conpulsion had something like 35 different RPGs this year), you can be guaranteed the GM knows the game because (s)he wrote it.

Irish cons often struggle to get half that number of games. How would limiting games to 1 table help there? As was said above, the shared experience of multiple tables is great. Almost every game I've ever played or run became great fodder for conversation with people I'd never met before, because their version played out differently.

Staggering slots is not a bad idea. This year at Itzacon one GM was approached by a group and begged to run his scenario for them the day after it ran. A tiny shadow of the real thing, perhaps, but perfectly possible.

All any of this really requires to work is people willing to plan ahead and put in the effort.

[info]deannawol

April 3 2009, 14:55:34 UTC 3 years ago

Irish cons often struggle to get half that number of games. How would limiting games to 1 table help there? As was said above, the shared experience of multiple tables is great. Almost every game I've ever played or run became great fodder for conversation with people I'd never met before, because their version played out differently.

I honestly don't think that limiting the games to 1 table would work because people have expectations that there will be multiple tables. Limiting to 2 or 3 maybe...

[info]sarklor

April 3 2009, 15:05:47 UTC 3 years ago

2-3 (maybe 4 for some of the big names) is a fine compromise. I can't remember if it was this year's Warpcon or the one before where the Serenity game ended up with six or seven tables. All well and good but for the fact that it left nobody to play the OTHER scenarios on at the time. I can't imagine the writers were pleased at going to all that effort for nothing.

[info]deannawol

3 years ago

[info]word_maker

3 years ago

[info]kshandr

3 years ago

[info]fizzingwhizzby

April 5 2009, 11:47:10 UTC 3 years ago

Gaelcon Submissions

I am sure that everyone is already aware and at the risk of repeating myself, here is a little reminder for the Gaelcon submission deadlines:

The deadline for receipt of these submissions is May 31st 2009.
The deadline for receipt of completed submissions is the 30th September.
submissions gaelcon com

While we are asking writers to give us names of people who are willing to GM, we will also be creating a pool of GMs in order to make sure that people can prepare for the scenarios that they will be running.

[info]deannawol is helping me with the RPGs and LARPs this year and she will be looking after the GM pool.
Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Facebook Twitter More login options
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…